Not to long ago, a question was asked on a Yahoo group for men who like massage why straight men would go to a gay man for massage. For the purposes of this blog, I will use my name for the person asking the questions and I have changed the names of the responders.
Jack wrote:
OK, a topic that I have wanted to bring up for quite a while has to do with Straight Men who go to a gay man for an erotic or sensual massage. Based on our own poll, only half of the men who responded identify themselves as gay. Of my own cliental, almost half have told me that they are married to women. While it easy to say these men are in denial of their own orientation, I know that this is not always the case.
So the question becomes why do these straight men want a sensual or erotic massage from a gay man? What role do we as gay men who give massage play in these straight men's lives?
Jim wrote:
I think it is fairly simple.....men, whether gay/straight/bi, like sex and will have it with anyone, anytime, anywhere.
Ted wrote:
A guy being married doesn't necessarily make him straight or gay. I’m bi and like having a sensual massage.
Jack wrote:
Granted, but, there are indeed straight men who may or may not be married who get sensual or erotic massages from other men and that is there only man to man contact. What I am getting at is does the act of massage transcend sexual boundaries?
Rick wrote:
I am not a professional massage therapist yet, so I am unable to provide insight from that particular perspective. However, I have had a number of interactions (exchanges, etc.) with guys on this list. Rarely does the topic of sexual orientation (or identity) get discussed during the initial contact/communication between myself and other individuals, and often is not discussed at all during our interactions.
As someone who is in the process of becoming a professional massage therapist, I believe that sexual orientation (as well as other demographic information) is irrelevant. Yes, I generally post information (basic demographics & profile name [that has pics]) in my e-mails to this group and will sometimes ask for the same. I do this so people have some kind of point of reference about me and like to have the same about the other person. I do not recall ever (thus far), and hope that I never will, refuse to provide or exchange a massage based on any particular demographic (e.g., sexual orientation, age, gender, etc.).
In short, massage and touch can be beneficial to anyone, whether it be sensual/erotic or not. Regardless of the individual's sexual orientation it is not my place to determine if he is in denial or not, nor do I generally make such assumptions or judgments. I do have to admit that my beliefs or views about some of these issues have changed as a result of my own experiences with other men both within and outside of this group, as well as my own journey with eroticism and sensuality.
Jack wrote:
Oh, I am not suggesting that there is nor should there be any prjudice against Straight or bi men from gay masseurs. I for one would lose half my business. I usually don't know until they tell me (usually after the massage or before their second appointment) that they are identified as straight or have never had another man touch them. I guess that what I see is that we are as close to a safe space as these men can get to experiencing man to man touch and we should be aware and honor that.
In this modern world of laws and certifications and etc. it would be a shame if we lost this useful (at least I consider it useful) service in society.
Markus wrote:
Thanks Jack. Love the topic.
One aspect of this topic naturally begs the question how do I define what it means to be straight or gay or bi? It is a question of identity. And that, my friends, leads us to the philosophical realm of existentialism. Which is akin the rabbit hole in
Wonderland. Which I don't want to go too far into and get lost and confused.
I like to keep things simple when in discussion with a wider group but in small groups and even better in one-on-one conversations; I like to wax philosophical with the best of them.
So to keep this simple, first, I will say, in my humble opinion, that how another man defines himself is his right and his business, correspondingly what another man thinks of me is none of my business. Second, I would like to turn the direction of thinking away from identifying based on sex to one of being based on societal roles.
I recently attended a gay Native American conference and one workshop was on the subject of the historical roles of "two-spirits" (our generic term for lesbian gay bisexual & transgender people).
Some of y'all may have heard that Indians traditionally honored two-spirit people.
We were thought of as a third gender role, fulfilling specific, sacred and honored roles in our societies. The role reminds me of a concept in playing card games, and that is the role of the "wild card". It can be mated with any grouping depending on the role that needs to be fulfilled. So the point is that we are not about sex, we are about roles needed in our cultures. Fulfilling sexual needs was just one of many aspects of who we were, healers, marriage councilors, working with women, children and elders, etc..
Thus, a "straight married" man could come to us for sexual reasons without threatening their roles as "men". In many but not all tribes, at puberty and also in time of war, it was especially important for men to have sex with us so as to imbue them with great spiritual male power and strength. Male to male sexual energy was known to be very powerful.
Unfortunately, while there are isolated communities on reservations that are more accepting of two-spirit people, today most of our traditional customs and values have been lost and assimilated into the great Borg collective known as American society.
We have a running joke among two-spirit men that when we have sex we are "fulfilling our roles." LOL
I don't know much about female two-spirits, I was only interested in what was going on with the men, LOL. I do know there were a couple of well-known warrior chiefs who were women and had wives.
That's it for the Indian history lesson for today; I'll be here fulfilling my role.
Van wrote:
Had anyone asked me when I was in my 20's if I was gay, my answer would have been no. My relationships with men until I reached 37 were limited. I was married for 15 years before I had a relationship with a man that gave me a sense of what it was like to fully and openly love another man - which allowed me to think of myself as gay. As time goes by, I have no use for the labels, gay straight or bi. But I do understand that we are all somewhere on a continuum of sexual identity that runs from only attracted to the opposite sex to only attracted to the same sex and most of us fall in between. Depending upon where we are on the continuum, and the societal factors that allow us to explore our identities, men who might consider themselves straight still find pleasure in being massaged and masturbated by another man. I am reminded of my childhood friend who took my "virginity" and loved to have me go down on him, but remains to this day steadfastly identified as straight and unwilling to revisit his past enjoyment of being with another man (albeit a teen). The bottom line is, we are often motivated to do what feels good and the labeling and categorizing often serves to make us feel "different."
Matthew wrote:
I think Marlon hit the nail in the head when he wrote in the home page: "In our society men touching men is generally taboo and tragically the reason most American men are extremely touch-deprived. How many times a day do you get a hug or get a gentle caress on your back? Especially from another man? Only a man's touch creates the strong masculine affirming bond that can only come from another man."
Massage is a great opportunity to touch and be touched by another man. For me it is “touch therapy”. We believe that a gay masseur will understand and be less queasy about touching and be touched without necessarily getting into sex. I once said, you guys have a special place in heaven for providing this service to us, married guys. Sometimes a massage works better than a session with a shrink.
Don wrote:
I'm a LOT older than you and have been around the block a few more times, perhaps too many times, and am a gay massage therapist.
Over 75% of my male clients are married with families and nearly EVERY ONE of them is so terribly touch deprived, thanks to our weird society, and they particularly like being touched by a male. Not only do they like being touched by a male, they are desperate to be touched by a male!!!
Is there a reason the Romans ruled the world for 2000 years (we were lucky to make it to 200) and they ALL had men for their sexual partners, wives were strictly for impregnating, nothing else. The married men who come to me are desperately in need of sensual touching, and they want to be able to talk to me privately and discreetly to tell me what they REALLY like, many of them are suffering from sexual dysfunction. Age 40 is THEE year of their deciding that maybe being married to a woman is not the way
to go. I think most males, even the totally homophobic ones, have a tinge of bisexuality in them, though they would not, of course, admit it. If you are interested in who I am and where I am, I will happily give you that privately, but not in this e-mail because I don't know if it is going to remain private and wouldn't want any of my clients reading an e-mail I wrote stating that most of my married male clients want me [in spite of my age!!!] (lol) I wish you were closer. I would get a massage from you. Or maybe you have
age limits for your clients????
James:
Great topic Jack. I am genuinely interested in hearing the responses. I am a gay guy with some professional message experience. I occasionally offer free full body erotic massages to guys in this group as a way to meet other gays. In addition, I have an interest in prostate massage and enjoy improving my erotic massage techniques. I offer the following as my own response to sexual orientation and massage realizing that other views are equally valid. While I personally am gay, and definitely gay (and not bi), I realize that beyond that ID I am also a sexual human being and that I have sexual attraction to both sexes, just a marked preference for one. I wonder to what extent this could be true for straight guys seeking a sexual massage from a gay guy. Also, I think curiosity is quite a strong animal when it comes to sexual exploration. Hope this adds to mix.
David wrote:
I think many men like sensual massage, be it with a male or a female.
I think maybe that men feel like it is NOT crossing a line, and they can justify rationalize the "happy ending" if there is one.
Selecting a male or a female shows, I guess, the underlying interest in being with another person.
Just my 2 cents.
Jeff wrote:
The short answer is, some of us don't know what we are--gay, bi, or something in between. Whatever we are, those of us who go to gay men for a massage do so because the naked encounter with another man, whatever his orientation, even when there is no sexual touching, fulfills something deep inside us while still allowing us stay married and avoid cheating. (For example: "Where were you this afternoon?" "I got a massage." No deception is required.) When I get a massage, I usually prefer men because they are not squeamish; you don't have to worry about being draped or throwing wood. Also, a man is more likely to hit the inner thighs and butt than a woman. (A woman certainly won't massage a guy's naked butt, at least not in my experience.)
For myself, I prefer non sensual massage--i.e., no touching of actual genitals--because paying $80 to get off seems, well, sleazy. But I will admit I have gone the sensual route and it was an unbelievable experience...that left me feeling guilty.
The other issue is, I don't always know what the therapist is assuming. For example, when I get an appointment with you, which I intend to do, I won't know whether you do straight massage or something extra, and how that will be determined. So normally I go with the flow, and let the therapist determine.
To make a long post short, If you're a guy, and you like massage, you are by nature somewhat uninhibited and sensual, and you only have to move a few degrees on the gay-straight spectrum to decide, 1) I want to be nude, 2) I want a guy to do it and 3) if he's gay he'll probably hit all the spots except the money spots. Would a totally straight guy let a gay massage therapist get him off? I doubt it, but I don't know because I am bi/gay.
I can also tell you that for someone like me, who is somewhere between bi and gay, and is in a committed marriage, a good, non-sexual massage from a gay guy keeps me saner than I otherwise would be, considering the life I lead.
Mark wrote:
A massage feels good whether it is from a man or a woman. Men, often being stronger and more familiar with a man's body, have a special ability to please. The concept of being looked at by a different person, without feeling like you are cheating, is kind of fun and erotic in and of itself. The ability to fantasize about exactly what might be happening is great too..
(but, it is sometimes ruined if the masseur tries to turn the event into a reciprocal thing, by trying to rub their penis against the person receiving the massage.. this can be a shocking awakening as to exactly what is happening... or assuming the person receiving the massage is really having recessed homosexual feelings and wants to have sex with them, but just can't admit it)
Tom Wrote:
So many of the responses to this seem to me like, sorry to say, complete crap. These responses are not written by straight men, but by gay or bisexual men. Straight men do not all have secret yearnings to touch your penis or have "man on man" sex. Try to have some empathy.... If you were getting a massage from a woman would you want to touch her vagina, would you want to lick her vagina, rub against her pubic region, etc? Unless you are bi, the answer I am betting is no. Thus, if that happened, and you were getting a massage from a woman, any arousal you might have had because you were enjoying a peaceful moment and daydreaming about Brad Pitt or whatever, would be gone.
This, I believe, is the same for straight men getting a massage from a man. They want the masseur to remain clothed, they do not secretly want to touch or suck the masseur, and they are not interested in body contact. They may get aroused, and enjoy having their body touched and adored, and may get off.
In my experience gay men make the mistake of assuming everyone is "a little gay." Well, next time you are thinking that just think if you want to perform oral sex on a woman...if you do, you may be "a little straight." This may help you have empathy and actually begin to realize that some men really are straight.
Having said all of that, I love getting a massage from a man. I am able to get deep muscle penetration, and I enjoy getting touched. I am sometimes thinking it is Angelina Jolie giving me the massage, but as long as the guy giving the massage doesn't mind, I don't mind!
Jack writes:
Great! This is the kind of response I was looking for. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain for a moment or two.
Is it often the case that you feel the masseur wants you to touch them back?
Tom wrote:
Not often... just sometimes when I am getting a "free" massage and the masseur, like when massaging my hands, makes sure my hand accidentally touches his crotch .. or, he rubs his erection against my head. Usually in these cases the masseur has stripped down to his underwear or t-shirt and underwear. This is fine.
Jack writes:
When you look for a masseur, where do you look? What is it that you are looking for?
Tom wrote:
I get them at my health club, which are totally professional. I also look from time to time on places like this group or aol profiles or referrals from friends.
Jack writes:
When you get a massage, do you normally ask for draping or no draping?
Tom wrote:
draping in a professional setting. either a towel, draping or underwear in a non-professional setting
Jack writes:
The reason I ask these questions is that in a truly professional setting, there would be draping, there would be no touching of genitals, and the masseur would be fully dressed. To do any thing else they could lose their license. Typically, the only time that draping is optional, or touching for the purpose of arousal or touching of the genitals happens is if the masseur knows that is what you came for based on the ad that they placed or the questions that you asked. Also, if you don't mind me asking, would you not be offended if a man touched you inappropriately during a massage?
Tom wrote:
I would not be offended. Maybe I should be, but I would not be. It never happens in a professional setting, and happens about 90% of the time in nonprofessional settings, so I have come to expect the outcome. If I was offended, I guess I would skip to doing only professional massages.
I hope that you all found this exchange as interesting and enlightening as I did. - Jack
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